A copy of the transcript of the recorded interview with Ray Galloway and Claire Jones at the Speaking Out inquiry below

This was forty minutes into the interview but they decided to start recording now?

My solicitor, Liz Dux, who I believed would be present, did not show up, I had no help, support or even a witness.

During the unrecorded portion of the interview, my written statement had been ripped to shreds, my victim status denied, and I had been told categorically that it was highly unlikely that someone as famous as Savile would sexually assault children in his car. Further, I had been told that I could not have witnessed Savile assault a dead woman in a lift at Leeds General Infirmary, because there were procedures in place to prevent such an occurrence.

I was now in an unfit state to be interviewed, but they did so anyway, see for yourself how rambling and incoherent this interview is, you can also see references back to the unrecorded pre interview.

Ray Galloway was particularly aggressive and assertive in the unrecorded section, I now know that he was a former police officer, feted for his work on the Claudia Lawrence case, where he did not listen to witnesses, managed to turn the public off the case by suggesting she was immoral, and failed as a result to break this case. An unfit person to be "listening to" victims of Savile in my opinion.

Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust

Investigation into matters dealing with JS

Interview with

REDACTED

Thursday, 23 May 2013

Investigators: Mr Ray Galloway

Ms Claire Jones

[Interview commenced at 11. 50am]

Mr Galloway: The time is 11.50am. It is Thursday 23 May 2013. My name is Ray Galloway, I am a Director of the Jimmy Savile investigation, and with me this morning is‐ Ms Jones: Claire Jones, Senior Investigation Adviser.

Mr Galloway: We are at the offices of the Speaking Out investigation team at Leeds General Infirmary, and the gentleman that we are interviewing this morning is

Mr REDACTED.

Mr Galloway: Thank you Mr REDACTED. Could I have your date of birth please?

A. Yes, REDACTED.

Q. Thank you. Mr REDACTED, I understand that you have had some experiences with regard to Jimmy Savile, and I am also aware that we have a 14‐page statement from you provided by your solicitors Slater & Gordon. Are you happy that we utilise that statement as the detailed account of your experiences?

A. Yes, I am happy for that.

Q. Okay; and are you happy that we just clarify the detail of your experiences with Mr Savile, because your statement actually does refer to and articulate quite a number of subsidiary results and events that have occurred as a result of the attack?

A. Yes. I am happy with that.

Q. So can I ask you to just share with us the detail of your experience with Savile, please?

A. My sister REDACTED had problems with balance as a child. She used to fall over regularly and was always cutting her knees and bruised, cut hands and so on. She was so bad at balancing I used almost to carry her around when we went outside, playing and so on and so forth, and this was being investigated by a team in Leeds. She was being brought in, and at the time there was no such 1

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thing as scanners, so they were using x‐rays to try and determine what was wrong with her.

It was felt that the problem was to do with her spine, and there were limits to how many x‐rays she could be exposed to in any given period of time, because being a female it would damage her potential for reproduction in the future and various other issues.

She also must have had thousands of x‐rays over a period of several years, and finally when she was 14 waiting for a major operation, which we were told at the time was the equivalent of having a heart‐and‐lung bypass, she was put on a machine to keep her alive during the operation. She had two ribs removed and they finally surgically removed a lump the size of a man's fist from the inside of her spine.

Unfortunately that didn't make her any better, she was still just as bad afterwards, so it didn't correct the issues that they started with, but during all of these procedures she was in and out of hospital a lot, as you can probably appreciate, for tests. Sometimes they would bring her into hospital and have her as an inpatient for a few days so that they could do multiple x‐rays quickly one after the other, see the results and then carry on.

On one of these occasions she was here in the LGI. I know it was the LGI because my father's firm were painting the outside at the time, and we met my father here. My mother and I walked down to visit REDACTED and met my father here, and he was still in his painting overalls.

We went on to a ward.

My sister was in bed in the ward. The team wanted to speak to my mother and father and didn't want to speak in front of my sister or myself, so I was left sat by my sister's bed on the ward while the team spoke to my mother and father somewhere else. I don't know where they were.

All of a sudden the curtains round the bed were pulled back and a person dressed as if he was something to do with the hospital, so he had like a doctor's white gown on and he had a stethoscope round his neck, with white hair, stuck his head around the curtains. I can't remember what he said but he said some quite strange things, in what I assumed, from a 12‐year‐old's perspective, a way that he was trying to be friendly and cheer up my sister as a patient in hospital.

He started to act about a bit. It was quite obvious that he wasn't officially a doctor. because he had bare hairy legs with gold shoes on and no socks, and even with the doctors' coat

from the knees down you could see bare legs and gold shoes.

He pretended to take my sister's pulse to start with, and then he pretended to listen to her chest with the stethoscope, saying that he couldn't find her pulse and joking about. After a few minutes of him making quips and chatting he suddenly produced a bag that he had with him which contained some chicken pieces, and he offered myself and my sister a piece of chicken. We accepted it, it was a piece of chicken that's all, there was no harm in that, and while we were eating it he climbed on to the bed with my sister.

My sister is now propped up in bed semi‐sitting, she is covered to the waist with lots of white blankets, and she is wearing a hospital nightdress. Savile sat on top of the bed next to her with his arm extended, not actually around her but around the bed‐head. I was sitting on the opposite side, so Savile is on the opposite side of my sister to the side of the bed that I was sitting on. Q, You say 'Savile' but at what point did you know it was Jimmy Savile?

A. I didn't know it was Savile at the time, because when we were brought up we had no television, we didn't have a car, we had no experience of radio or anything like that, so I had no idea who this gentleman was. I thought he was just a bit of a clown, really, and he seemed harmless enough. He was just generally joking and I thought he was just there to make people feel better.

The chicken that he gave us was absolutely delicious, I had never tasted anything like it in my life, and we both asked him where he got the chicken from. He replied that he bought it from Kentucky Fried Chicken in Headingley. I understand that the Kentucky Fried Chicken opened in about 1966, and it was one of the first ones outside of London. London was the first and then Leeds was second, and then it spread throughout Europe, so it was something quite unique and we had never experienced before. He talked about the chicken, and he wanted either of us to meet him and he would buy us some more chicken. He said it was better when it was hot and fresh rather than when it was cold. We knew where the Kentucky Fried Chicken place was because No. 1, my paper round was at the paper shop at the opposite end of the block, so our house was at this end of Headingley, Kentucky Fried Chicken away on the block, and my paper round in there in the block. I walked past it twice a day to and from my paper round.

The conversation changed from chicken after a while and on to nurses, and Savile‐ no, sorry, I missed a step. When Savile first introduced himself and after sitting on the side of the bed he asked if we knew who he was. Neither of us knew, a∙nd he said 'Have you not seen me on television', and we said 'But we don't have a television'. He ascertained with more questioning that there were five children in the family, and he made a slightly crude joke about that being the reason we were a big family, because we didn't have a television‐ which we really didn't understand at the time.

Then came the first instance of the chicken, and a general opening invite to meet him at any time, because he said he went to the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop at teatime regularly, and if we were there and he met us he would buy us some, fresh and hot, which would be even nicer.

The conversation changed to nurses, and he started to ask where we thought the nurses lived. My recollection is that I or my sister or both of us agreed that we thought they lived in houses! Ten or 12‐year‐olds would think that, wouldn't they? He replied that most of the nurses lived in the hospital and had their own rooms there. He then alluded to whether I would like to go and see them with him, and he produced a key on a chain, which was a Yale‐type key, and said This is the key to the nurses' quarters in the hospital'. Whether

that is true or not doesn't matter, but that is what he told us.

Now, it was one thing him coming and giving us some chicken and sitting on the hospital bed and acting about a bit and trying to cheer us up. It was a completely different thing to go off with him, and of course the 'stranger alert' situation kicks in so we declined to go and see where the nurses lived.

The conversation turned back to chicken again, and he was quite insistent that I should meet him and possibly about teatime that same day at the Kentucky Fried Chicken in Headingley. He assured me and put his finger up the side of his nose, that it would be to my advantage if I went and he would have a big surprise for me.

Just as he was finishing saying that the team arrived back with my mum and dad. Savile got off the bed and now there were a team standing around the bed. I wouldn't have known at the time as a 12‐year~old but I now know from my own experience having been in teaching hospitals that it was quite common for the consultants to stand at the side of the bed with several junior doctors and half‐a‐dozen nurses, and you've got 20 people around the bed before you know it. This happened, so my mother and father arrived back with what I assume were consultants and junior doctors and nurses, and Savile put his arm around the waist of two of the female nurses. He was obviously really well‐known by all the staff, so they knew exactly who he was, and they accepted him putting his arm around them and making silly quips and things.

The first thing he did was to introduce himself to my mum and dad. I didn't catch his name, I

didn't remember it, but he shook my mum and dad's hands and said something daft, I don't know quite what he said, then the next thing you know he is stood with his arms around the nurses, the doctors are speaking about REDACTED, I am listening to what the doctors and nurses are saying about potentially what the future holds for her and what will happen next, and what they want us to do with her next and so on. My mum and dad were listening to it as well, and this was all for REDACTED's benefit now. They basically had come to tell REDACTED, the patient, what ∙it is that they want to do next.

After that I left with my mum and dad. I don't know where Sa vile or the group of people from around the bed went but they all disappeared, we said goodbye to REDACTED and shortly afterwards I left with my mum and dad. I was quite excited over my paper‐round, and I left to do that and decided 'What's wrong with meeting this Savile guy? He said he would buy me some chicken,' ‐ or should I say 'What's wrong with meeting this strange person we met in the hospital, he did say he would buy me some chicken and he seemed to be known by all the nurses and doctors?'. He had introduced himself to my parents, and so the

'Stranger' barrier had been dropped,

because essentially he now knew my sister, he knew my parents, he was obviously wellknown by all the staff at the hospital, so essentially he didn't seem a 'stranger' any more, if that makes sense.

So after my paper‐round I met him at the Kentucky Fried Chicken, and I was able to recognise him because he was still wearing the gold shoes, but he had lost the white coat now and he had sort of gold shorts on and a gold top and bare chest with a big medallion and a big cigar, all that carry‐on. We went into the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop where he bought me a box of chicken. Q . Where did you meet him, outside?

A. He was outside the store at the time, and there were a few people around him talking to him. When I pulled up he recognised me, I recognised him from his shoes and his silly hair, and it was then that the people seemed to sort of all disappear and there was just me and him, and we went into the Kentucky

Fried Chicken shop, queued up, and he was well‐known in that shop as well. The staff behind the counter all knew him.

He bought some chicken, and he had me hold his cigar while he was fishing money out and collecting the chicken, and then took it back off me again, and as we came out of this store it started to rain. He said 'Let's eat it in the car', and it seemed logical enough, it was raining and we wanted to eat the chicken, so we went to the car.

We walked a bit up the street from where the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop was in Headingley, and his car was parked up. I don't know what type of car it was because mum and dad didn't have a car so cars were things that went past on the street, I didn't know anything about them, you know? He opened the car back door and to my surprise there was a girl inside the car. I don't remember much about what Savile said then, but we finished up where I got into the car and sat in the seat nearest to the door he had opened, the girl was in the other seat, Savile climbed in the back of the car and sat between the two of us. Q. Was it a big car?

A. Well, it must have been a big car for three of us to sit in it, but I didn't think it was that way at the time, because the only other time I had been in any sort of moving vehicle was we used to go in a furniture van across to Grassington during the summer holidays, and stay with a family there. It was a furniture removal van and we sat in the back with all the beds and mattresses and chest‐of‐drawers and things!

On another occasion a student had taken us in a minivan across to the coast. and we had all

sat in the back of the minivan. I had never been in the back of a minivan before!

Q. Do you know the colour?

A. No, I have no idea. I can't remember.

Savile then suggested that I had to share the chicken with the girl in the car, so being polite I offered her the box of chicken with two pieces in. I remember thinking distinctly ‐ because she reached over, there was one big bit and one small bit, and she took the big bit! That is something you don't forget as kids, is it? It seems unfair that she took the big bit, she really should break a bit off that and give me some back!

Anyway, we get to the point where we are eating the chicken in the car, and I look over and realise that she has finished the chicken, and I had taken only ∙the very small bit, and Savile's now got her dress pulled up and his hand down inside her knickers.

The next step then is I am a bit shocked at that, and the next thing you know Savile has put his hand on my stomach here and slid his hand down into my trousers. [Pause] You would think the natural reaction would be to fight him off, but for some reason this had fascinated me and got me aroused. I didn't know how to react, so I did nothing. After a few minutes Savile encouraged me to get

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down on to my knees in the back of the car, so I am now on my knees with Savile sat in the middle between us and the girl sat next to Savile.

The police have tried to get more detail about this, about which way around we were sat in the car, but I can't remember whether the car was that was around or this way around when we got in, so I can't remember whether we got in the driver's side or the passenger side, if that makes sense.

a. Where were you kneeling?

A. This is part of why it must have been a big car, because there was room for me to turn and kneel in the foot space between the back seats and the front seats, with Savile in the middle.

Now, being from a poor family my mum and dad used always to buy us clothes that were one or two sizes too big so they would last longer, so my trousers were fairly loose and I was quite skinny, so Savile just deftly slipped my trousers down and my pants down, and then he proceeded to touch me sexually whilst he was touching the girl sexually. I could see what he. Was doing with the girl, but not in great detail, so there were hands inside the knickers and the visibility of pubic hair, because as his hands was in the knickers he pushed the knickers down a bit, and all that was visible, if that makes sense.

After a short time things reached a natural conclusion. I put my trousers back on ‐ Q. Can I just ask you to clarify that? What do you mean by that?

A. Well ‐ I ejaculated.

Q. Okay.

A. Savile then sort of lost interest in me and paid more interest to the girl, so I put my trousers on and started to feel a bit embarrassed. Then Savile reached over and said 'Okay, I'll see you around, kidde' or something like that, I don't remember exactly what he said, but it was fairly obvious that he wanted me to now leave, and Savile reached over and pulled the door catch and the door swung open and I got out of the car and walked home. Q . Could I just ask you how old you were at this point? A. I reckon I were 12.

Q. Before that had you ever had an erection or masturbated or ejaculated before? A. No. Never before, no. I had never been exposed to any sort of media that would potentially have bought on that sort of interest. I had had no sex education either at school or at home, we had no television, no radio, no magazines. Alii had ever been exposed to was church and things like Young Life meetings and missionaries giving speeches about how their husbands had been killed. There were 11 missionaries killed in about 1967/68 in the Amazon region of Brazil. They had spent years flying low over and dropping cooking pots and knives and all sorts to the natives there to try and make contact, and when they decided it was time to go in on foot they went in, there was a big crowd of them, and they were all killed. My parents knew all of them, and I knew their kids and everything. 6

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When we went on holiday it would be to Beach Missions on the coast, which is like parents providing Sunday School lessons on the beach twice a day for the local children, so my whole life up to that point had all been about religion and everything else.

Things like the St George's Crypt, my parents were involved in St George's and I would help clear all the rubble out after the steeple fell through the roof as a youngster, so everything had been about being brought up in a very religious Christian family.

When my parents got married it was with the intention to go and be missionaries. I was born nine months later and then four more came along within seven years, so that put paid to their ideas of going to be missionaries. 

Q . Okay, we understand the context there then, but with regard to this vehicle that you are in, how far away from Kentucky Fried Chicken down the road is this vehicle parked? A. Kentucky Fried Chicken is on the end of the building that is the Merrion Centre in Headingley‐ or the Arndale Centre in Headingley. My paper round was from the paper shop at one end, one of the old buildings before they built the Arndale Centre, and Kentucky came with the Arndale Centre brand new.

There is a road runs up the side there to the Centre which is now closed off with bollards, but it wasn't at that time, and his car was a few yards or so up that road. It is quite a narrow dark back lane. There are some houses on that road but they've got bushes and trees and things in the front gardens, so it is quite secluded where he parked.

Q. Let's think this through, then. The road where Kentucky Fried Chicken is, that is a busy road, isn't it?

A. That is the main Heading ley road. He was 100 yards up a dark country lane, more like a country lane at the side of Kentucky. As you actually walk down that bit, because we used to frequent that area and go and collect conkers and things like that from there as kids. It is

dark and narrow, and there are just a few parked cars there.

Q . But this was not dark at the time though, it is early evening, isn't it?

A. It is early evening, yes.

Q. And there are residents up there?

A. I am racking my brains to think about when this was, and one of the things that we missed that were discussed at one point was when Savile was with us in the hospital. He mentioned the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop. I mentioned that on the road round the back of there were where I used to go with my school friends, and we used to throw sticks up into. the trees to get conkers down. I can only think that we were talking about conkers because perhaps I had just been going and getting conkers in the last week or 10 days, so as far as I can track it down to this must have been around about September time we are talking about.

The paper round would have been at about 6.30 so we are on the dusk end of daylight, not full daylight.

Q . Okay, but we are talking about Jimmy Savile, who is dressed, by your own description, all in gold?

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A. Mm.

Q. He is a national celebrity: you are in his vehicle, what we believe is his vehicle and it sounds as though it is likely to be one of the bigger vehicles, such as a Rolls Royce? A. I now know that he owned a Rolls Royce. I can't say whether it was a Rolls Royce we were in at the time.

Q. Okay, but the detail of your account gives you effectively that you masturbated on your knees in the back of the vehicle whilst another girl is being interfered with, effectively in plain sight albeit down what you are describing as a side road. Is it fair to say that that is at least an unlikely scenario?

A. [Pause} It is not for me to say because it happened to me.

Q. I am not saying it didn't happen, Mr REDACTED, but the account that you are giving, I have to ask you this because it just sounds unlikely, what you are saying to me. Can you see that? A. I've not thought about it that way, because I have lived with it for 40‐odd years, so I have never seen it from that perspective. At the time I didn't know he was a celebrity. With hindsight it is easy to say there was a crowd of people around him outside Kentucky Fried Chicken when I first met with him. They obviously knew he was a celebrity, and with hindsight the doctors and nurses knew he was a celebrity in the hospital. The Kentucky Fried Chicken staff may or may.not have known, whether he was a regular customer or as a celebrity. This is all hindsight. 

Q. The point is not whether anybody knew he was a celebrity, the fact is ‐ A. No, I am not saying that, but it is unlikely that a celebrity would assault two kids in the back of a car.

Q. No, I am not saying that, I am saying the fact that the way you are describing it and where it happened, it just sounds an unlikely location and situation for somebody to commit that kind of attack.

A. Well, to put things into context, that road that leads off leads nowhere. There are very few pedestrians walk up that way, there are no shops up that way, there is nothing to go up there to other than a few private houses.

Q. Right.

A. The only way you potentially could be disturbed in that situation would have been if somebody resident from the houses had walked past, but we can only surmise. I don't know whether his car had privacy glass in it. I don't know.

Q. I want to explain that is useful context for us. So when he said to you and almost like dismisses you from the vehicle, you have ejaculated and he effectively dismisses you from the vehicle, what happens then?

A. He made some comment, and I can't remember exactly what he said, but it is fairly obvious that he was staying there with the girl, with the car, and it was time for me to leave. I'd had my big surprise that he promised me in the hospital earlier that day. I am still in a slightly shell‐shocked state because I had an experience the like of which I had never known before in my life.

I feel strange, a part mixture of enjoyment and guilt in equal measure. I've never experienced anything like this before, and I had time during the 15 minutes or so walk home to reflect upon it. During that walk home it was my

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decision to go back to see if I could meet him again, to see if I could experience something like that again in the future.

He told me that he was regularly buying Kentucky Chicken at tea‐time from the Kentucky shop, so from that day forward each day that I went to do my paper‐round I would hang about by the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop. Rather than going looking for conkers and apples and things I would hang about by the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop.

At the time my parents were expecting me to be home by the time the street lights turned pink, because 15 or 20 minutes later they would be orange and it would be fully dark. I know I made it home while they were still pink on that first instance, so that gives you some idea of the timings and so on.

On another occasion, and because of my age, time is difficult to put your finger on from 40 years on, as a 12‐year‐old. You don't know whether it was three days later, three weeks later, three months later. I suspect it was somewhere in the region of two or three weeks later I did meet him again at an alternative time outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop, and this time we didn't buy chicken.

His car was parked in roughly the same place as it had been before, and so we went to his car. As we met up he was dressed completely differently, he was dressed more like a smart businessman. He was now wearing shiny shoes, a suit, a tie, looked very smart, he had a handkerchief folded in his top pocket and so forth.

On this occasion when we got ‐to the car he opened the back door of the car and I got in the∙ back seat. He climbed in and drove the car, and I tried to work out the timings to get some idea of where we may have gone, because at the time when I first went to speak to the police about this in October, he drove about in my opinion a reasonable length of time, which was 15‐30 minutes. We arrived at a big building and we parked up in a secluded area behind the big building, next to some terraced‐looking properties and what seemed to be the front doors of a church or a chapel.

He asked me to wait in the car. He went away for a period of time, and I don't remember how long because I didn't have a wrist watch or anything like that to know what time it was. He came back with the same girl, to the car. Savile climbed into the car first and sat in the middle of the back seat, and then the girl got in and sat on the seat.

The girl this time was dressed in the same coat that we had met her in when we had met her previously, but she had on a hospital nightdress. I recognised it as being a hospital nightdress because my sister used to have to wear one when she came into hospital so they all looked the same.

On this occasion, bear in mind I was a willing participant in this, so without much prompting from Savile 1 had assumed the position on my knees, etc. Savile started to touch her in the same way, and part‐way through proceedings he stopped doing that took hold of my hand, and put my hand down inside her knickers whilst he was touching me.

Q. How did that happen then? Because you were in the foot‐well; which side of her were you on?

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A. As far as I can recall Savile's in the middle, I am on the left‐hand side of Savile on my knees facing this way. She is sat here, and he has just simply taken my hand and reached it over himself, and I had leaned forward, and he has put my hand into her knickers. Q. So you are indicating, just for the benefit of the tape, that your right hand is being stretched across effectively Savile's knees into the pubic area of the young girl? A. Yes.

Q. Can you describe that girl to us?

A. I can only describe what she was wearing. ∙ The thing that struck me as odd about her was she didn't react at aiL She didn't look at me, didn't speak to me, didn't say anything. Ms Jones: What age was she?

A. She was older than me I think. In my original statement I came to the conclusion she was somewhere between 12 and 16, but it is difficult for a 12‐ year‐old. If somebody is a bit older than you, you don't really know how much older than you really, unless they speak to you and tell you. She never reacted, she never spoke to me, she never said anything. She didn't react with Savile, any discussions at all with Savile had been done prior to me being in the car on both occasions. She was completely silent on both occasions.

Now, after I had been to see the police I made a journey to the LGI first, and then went to St James's, and I walked around the grounds to see if I could find the location, because I suspected it would be one of the two main hospitals where we had gone to.

Q. Why did you feel that it might have been one of the hospitals?

A. When I sat down and worked it out, basically I was at school and I had walked from

Abbey Grange over the playing fields to Headingley to do my paper round.

I had then done my paper‐round which took another fair amount of time. I then hung around for Savile for a fair amount of time. I had met Savile, we got in his car, we had driven somewhere that can't have been that far away, we had had the incident with the girl in the back of the car. Savile then took the girl away and came back without her, and then he drove me back and dropped me off in the car park at the church at the top of my street in Victoria ‐ the name of the street was Richmond Mount but the houses backed on to Victoria Avenue, I think it is called. There is a church at the top of Victoria Avenue and there is a car park there, and he dropped me off in there.

Now, it perplexed me and puzzled me that I wanted to try and find where that incident had happened. I knew where it was the first time because I knew that street, and I don't know fully what drove me to do it but I did decide that I would go and look and see if there was anywhere obvious where he had parked the car for this second situation.

Sorry, we have missed a step here. I know when I got back and Savile had dropped me off at the church that the lights had turned to pink, so I was just comfortably in time to get home before the lights turned orange, so it can't have been more than a 10 or 15 minute drive from Headingley to where he took me to, the large building.

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When I looked at St James's I came across what I believe to be the location. That is the chapel at St James's, which is to the right of the main entranceway before you get to the Thackray Museum. There is a large block‐ can I just have a piece of paper? [Drawing} That is the main entrance to St James's, and that is Thackray. There is a chapel here, and there is a block of what looked like terraced houses ‐ not houses, like a terraced building here. This church is quite unusual in that it has double doors that are like that next to each other, and windows either side as well. This is what I remember of it.

I have been to St James's Hospital I don't know how many times, because two of my children were born there, I was treated for cancer there, I have been to outpatients there for 12 years following the cancer, but every time you go in, you either go in there or you go in a little gate here. So that is the hospital, which is where I wanted to be when the cancer was done, etc. This has a clock tower on it. It looks completely different from the back than it does from the front, because he parked somewhere here and from that position you can't see the clock tower, and I don't recall there being a clock tower on the building. That is what had thrown me for years, that this has a clock tower on this side and it is so obviously a chapel with a clock tower, but as a 12‐year‐old parked up in the street on the other side, tucked away there, you couldn't see the clock tower because the building is in the way. The clock tower is a bit obscured.

That is where I believe that we parked with Savile that time, and it is my suspicion that the girl was a patient at St James's Hospital, and that he must have had access to her to take her out.

Mr Galloway: So you are suggesting that he has gone into a ward via the front entrance, as you believe it?

A. Well, the hospital main building is here and then there is another building here and another building here, and some more down here. It is a massive complex site, there are dozens of buildings. It has changed over the years because some of these buildings weren't there when I was 12, so there are buildings that have been demolished and new buildings that have been built.

The Children's Wards now are in some relatively new buildings in this general area here. So whether he got her from there or not ‐I don't know when those buildings were built, so I can only surmise it now.

That location fits roughly the amount of time it took to drive from Headingley, park the car and back, which must have been 15 or 20 minutes most in both directions. It fits my recollection of it being a large building, and I have never been in that building before as far as I can recollect because my sister was treated here.

The location with this chapel, I remember the terraced buildings that looked to me as a child much like terraced housing, and the unusual building with these double arched doors and arched windows. I don't remember the clock tower, but standing there you can't see the clock tower.

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a. At what point did you recall noticing these windows?

A. Bear in mind I am sat in the car for a period of time whilst Savile leaves me to go and get the girl, and then afterwards Savile takes the girl back and I am sat in the car with him; so I am sat in the car looking at those two buildings for ‐ 1 don't know, minutes.

a. Can we just clarify that when you are on your knees in the foot‐well again and you are leaning across, and your hand is in the pubic area of the young girl, is Savile masturbating you at that point?

A. Yes.

a. Right, and what happens then, do you ejaculate?

A. Yes.

Q. Right; and how long does all that take?

A. I can't recall. I don't think it would be very long.

Q. Right; and what happened then?

A. After I had ejaculated Savile then took the girl back to where she had come from; so he got out of the car with the girl and left me in the back of the car. At some point not too long afterwards he arrived back alone. He said 'I'll take you back up to Headingley now then' or something like that, and he drove the car, and when we got near to where I lived I said 'lf you tum left here, this is my street'. He turned down the street but he didn't go down the street, he turned into the church car park and let me out there.

a. Was he in the same car that the original incident had occurred in?

A. I don't know.

Q. But was it a big car?

A. Well, it must have been a big car again to allow enough room in the back for what occurred. Whether it was the same car or not I have no idea. I didn't pay any attention to the car, I'm not interested in the car at all.

Q. Did he take any steps on either occasion to clear up your semen?

A. On the first occasion as far as I can recall ‐ the semen was either in his hands or on the floor of the car. This is looking back now, this is not what I recollect at the time. As far as I can recall I put my trousers and pants back on and pulled them up, and then it was time for me to leave the car.

On the second occasion he had left me in the back of the car and I put my trousers and pants back on and sat back on the seat.

Q. What about your semen?

A. Well, I don't know where that finished up. I did put on my pants and all that, so whether or not he had a handkerchief or whether or not it finished up on the floor of the car or whatever, I don't know.

Q. So when he left and took this girl back, and then took you back to Headingley and just dropped you off at the top of the street?

A. He did. and his parting shot was to say ‐ I could have been mistaken and I can't exactly remember what was said, but he made some comment which left me in no uncertain terms that I wasn't to go and meet him again because it wouldn't happen again.

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Q. Right. So when did you next meet him, or see him?

A. The next time we were in a situation where my sister's back into the LGI. I have gone with my mum and dad, and because of the bad asthma they really didn't like leaving me at home by myself in case I had an attack while they weren't there. It was good for me to get out and have a walk and things like that.

We had all walked down to the LGI, didn't have a car. This was potentially months later now, and it was one of the routine trips to the hospital that we probably had to make on almost a monthly basis to my sister over a number of some years. REDACTED was having a routine followup, and during the meeting when we were all down with my sister they wanted to have another listen to REDACTED's chest, etc., which meant her getting undressed.

My mum and dad just said 'Well look, you go and wait by the front doors and we will pick you up on the way out'. So I leave the consultation room, and as I am walking down the corridor I make a wrong turning and I am not a bit disorientated, a bit lost. It is a big , confusing building, and I bump into Savile again.

He is dressed with the white coat and the stethoscope on again. I didn't notice what he was wearing on his feet on this particular instance, but he is pushing a trolley. He recognised me straightaway and I recognised him straightaway.

I was a bit surprised to see him pushing a trolley. I had seen him coming out as a clown at the bedside but I didn't realise he was after doing some work for the hospital, portering and so on. Anyway, I made some comment about 'Can you show me the way out?' and he said 'Give me a hand with this trolley and I'll show you the way out when we've done this lot', so anyway we took the trolley through some doors, and I held the doors open and we got through the doors. We went to the lift area, he called the lift, we got into the lift, and while the lift was going, I remember the lift only moved very slowly ‐ it was a very big lift. While we were in the lift Savile uncovered the person on the trolley, and it was a woman who I would estimate to be about the same age as my mum at the time. He leaned over and kissed this person, and put one hand on her breast through her hospital nightie which she was wearing whilst on the trolley. Then he looked up at me and said 'Join in, I like them like this because they don't complain', or something like that.

Ms Jones: Can I just stop you there? When you met Savile before you got into the lift were you aware that there was a person on the trolley, or did you just think it was an empty trolley? A. I can't recall.

Q. So when you were in the lift and he pulled back a sheet to reveal what you are describing as a corpse, were you surprised?

A. I was shocked to the core; and the thing that shocked me most was she was obviously dead, and after he had pulled the sheet back and given her a kiss and stood back again from that, her mouth was open and he shut her mouth. I didn't know what to do. 13

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Mr Galloway: Okay, let's have a think about this, and I need to ask Claire's professional knowledge with regard to this, because Claire has extensive experience as a nurse. If a body was taken from a ward, Claire, would there be a procedure whereby there was something more than a sheet over that body?

Ms Jones: Yes, there is a procedure called 'Last Offices', which entailed the patient being washed and placed in a shroud and wrapped in a sheet, such that the patient's face is obscured. They are then tagged. They have a tag placed at the top of their head and on their feet, and they usually are placed in a tin trolley which has a lid on. They are always accompanied by two porters, because it requires two porters to lift the body from the bed to place them in the trolley.

Mr Galloway; Right; so if that is the situation, how do we explain your experience here? A. I don't know. All I can say is I bumped into Savile, he had a patient on a trolley. It is my opinion that when he pulled the sheets back on the person it was a corpse, and he kissed her. I remember her mouth being open after he kissed her. I remember her mouth being open after he kissed her, and him pushing her mouth shut, and then he very quickly covered the body back up again.

I helped him push the trolley out of the lift and through several more doors. We arrived at a place where the trolley with the corpse on it was handed over to some other people, and then Savile then said that he would show me out of the building.

As we were about near the exit to the building he suddenly steered me off, grabbed hold of my arm and steered me off round the corner into the back where it was a bit more tucked away. There was a small staircase next to a small lift, and it just ran back from the entranceway. He then essentially had a very serious word with me about not telling anybody, and the consequences of telling people. I can't remember exactly what he said, because while he was saying it he grabbed hold of me by my testicles and he squeezed one testicle to such an extent that I thought I was going to pass out. It was so painful that I couldn't cry out, and after he'd finished squeezing me he disappeared and I was left on my hands and knees on top of the staircase. It took me a minute or two to get to the point where I could stand up. Then I managed to make it down to where my .mother and father were, and it was quite obvious to them that I was in some ∙ extreme distress, and they questioned me about what had happened and I made a story up, that I bumped into some of the bullies from school who had kicked me. They accepted that story, because that was a common occurrence, and on one occasion I had been thrown off a moving bus by one of the bullies at school and the police had been involved. On another occasion I had had my leg jumped up and down on, to such an extent that I developed an abscess about the size of a tennis ball on my knee that required surgical attention. On another occasion I had suffered a fracture of my arm hrough bullying at school.

I was a target because I couldn't play sports, and I had asthma and I was small and skinny. 14

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Q. Okay. The attack by Savile where he squeezed your testicles, is this in a public area of the hospital?

A. It is a public area of the hospital but it is not a well‐used area of the hospital. On the front doors out towards the Civil Hall, if you come in through those doors there is a Reception area that has just been refurbished, but before it was refurbished there was a big lift that was very obviously the way to go to wards and everything, all signposted; but there was another smaller lift and some stairs just round here. That is where he took me. Q. Is this just off the main Reception area of the hospita l? 

A. Yes; but it was a small narrow staircase, not as well‐lit as the rest of the hospital, with a small lift that only carries about three people that has its back to the main lift and main staircase, that is massive, so hardly anyone uses this area or goes round to that area. It is not signposted, as far as I am aware. I can't really remember that well.

I have been back to that area a few years ago when I had a heart attack and I was being dealt with in this building, and I found that lift and stairwell when I was a bit lost in the building and realised how close it was to the Exit door.

So that is where he attacked me, and my mother and father were waiting for me with my sister out on the main steps. Q. Which is only yards away?

A. Yes, yards away, but not visible.

Q. I have to say again to you Mr REDACTED, that sounds like an unlikely scenario; a very notable individual in what is a very busy part of the hospital. or just off it, undertaking a very serious physical assault on a 12 or 13‐year‐old boy and then just leaving him in a heap and

walking away. That is effectively what you are saying, isn't it?

A. Yes. It may sound unlikely, but that is what happened, and it had some pretty considerable consequences. The injury was such that when I went to the toilet clots and what looked like bits of flesh came out in the urine stream, which was red with blood in it, so it was coloured for several days afterwards, and for years afterwards I had trouble with it, and the left one that he had got hold of was considerably larger than the right one, swollen. It didn't cause me much discomfort normally but it did cause discomfort after sexual intercourse ‐ not every time but maybe 50/50 or 30/70 per cent of the time I would have some trouble. On some occasions I would have a pink‐coloured urine for a day or so afterwards.

Q. Okay, thank you for that. We have the details of the consequences in your statement. Can I just take you back to that situation in the lift, because Jimmy Savile was at times a voluntary porter. Now, we have had from Claire the details of how a body would be dealt with , it would be put in the shroud and tagged and put in a specific type of trolley that would then be taken down to the Mortuary, almost without exception by two people. A. You say there 'almost without exception', so there must have been exceptions to that. Q . Okay.

A. I don't know where he came from with a trolley with a dead person on it, but she was wearing a hospital nightdress and she was only covered with a sheet, a blanket, something along those lines. It wasn't just a normal‐ I now know from being in hospital that sometimes they push hospital beds around,

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and sometimes they push thinner little trolleys around. My recollection is that it was one of the smaller thinner trolleys. I can't explain how he came to be pushing that trolley or where he was going with it. Q. Where did he go with it?

A. 1 don't know. I was lost in the hospital when I met him.

Q. When you were pushing it with him.

A. Well, we pushed it down a corridor, through a couple of doors into a lift. The incident occurred in the lift. We got out of the lift and I continued to help him to move the trolley through a couple more doors, and we arrived at somewhere or‐ other where there were people around. Savile spoke to those people and left the trolley with them, and then he came back to me within the corridor to show me how to get out of the building.

Ms Jones: Was there any conversation?

A. I don't remember. I wasn't privy to the conversation, he spoke ‐

Q. No, 1 meant the conversation between you and Savile, given the unique situation that he had.

A. The unique situation was when he got hold of me by the testicles.

Q. I mean immediately after he'd delivered the body to wherever or whoever he delivered it to, was there no conversation between the two of you regarding what had just taken place in the lift, and the fact that he was pushing around a corpse on a trolley and he had

subjected you to that? Was there just no conversation?

A. No conversation whatsoever, no.

Mr Galloway: When you arrived at wherever he took the body to, surely the people that

were receiving the body were surprised that there was a child with Savile?

A. It is my recollection that when he delivered this body I had helped him to get to the final set of doors, but he went through the final set of doors and all handed over or whatever he was doing behind those doors. They closed behind him so I was left out in the corridor, so there is a strong probability that the people that accepted that body from Savile delivering it from wherever it was being delivered never even saw me.

Q. Okay.

A. So then I was waiting for Savile to come back. because I was relying on him showing me the way out of the building. I didn't know where I was in the building.

Q. Alright. With regard to your experiences then with Savile, and notwithstanding the consequences of those attacks, after the situation prior to you going and returning to your parents, were there any other occasions?

A. On two or three occasions I bumped into Savile on Street Lane in Leeds, because I live near Street Lane and have done for nearly 30 years. The urge to have a word with him, I even considered thumping him, was very strong but the only times when I had met him I was with my wife or with my children or both. He was always wearing a silly disguise, he used to wear a

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silly plastic nose and glasses, covered his nose and wore glasses, but everyone knew who he was even though he was wearing a disguise; but what he was saying by wearing the disguise

was that he didn't want to be approached as a celebrity, as far as I am aware. Q. Right.

A. Because when he was wearing this silly disguise people ignored him; he was walking up and down Street Lane just as if he was anybody else, except that he had a stupid comedy nose on.

Q. Okay. We are grateful for you giving us all of the details of your incidents and your experiences there. Just to conclude, Mr REDACTED, could I ask you if there is anything you would like to say in terms of clarification, or any ambiguities you want to put right?

A. I am concerned about what you say about the way corpses are dealt with in the hospital and how there are special procedures and trolleys and so on and so forth. I have to say that this is going back to 1971.

Ms Jones: The same procedures were in place then, seriously not just in this hospital. That is a national way of dealing in respect to that dead person.

A. Okay; and that would apply even, for argument's sake, if somebody had died on a trolley in A&E or something like that ‐

Q. Absolutely.

A. ‐and they were being moved?

Q. Absolutely, yes.

A. I don't understand how that situation occurred then. There must have been some breach in procedure on that particular day at that particular time, where Savile was moving a body on a trolley without that procedure having taken place at that time before he took the body. Now, whether he jumped the gun and moved somebody that he shouldn't have moved or whatever, that is how I recollect the situation and that is the story that I have said to you. Q. I hear what you are saying, but it would be highly unlikely for a ward nurse to allow a body to be released ‐

A. It might not have come from a ward, it might have come from A&E.

Q. The same rules and procedures apply to any hospital department. An A&E department might not be the same traditional footprint as a ward, but the same rules and procedures would apply. There would still be nurses in charge of that person and in life or death individuals are treated with dignity and respect, and part of that is around making sure that somebody is covered up and treated in respectful manner before they are taken to the Mortuary.

A. Right. What about somebody who has died in an ambulance and is being brought into the hospital?

Q. Somebody that would have died in an ambulance would have been potentially brought into the A&E department, or the described Last Offices, or taken directly to the Mortuary. A. Right; because I have no idea where I was in the hospital, I just bumped into

Savile with a trolley and I asked him to show me the way out of the hospital, and he offered to do so if I gave him a hand.

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Mr Galloway: Obviously it is worth us hypothesising where that body came from. All we know for certain is the account that you have provided there is incredibly unlikely in terms of the circumstances that a body would be dealt with.

A. You are saying that it is incredibly unlikely that a celebrity like Savile would attack two children in the back of a car in a public place as well, but I understand over the intervening months since I gave a witness statement to the police that Savile used regularly to attack children in the back of his car in public places.

Q. How would you know that?

A. Well, everybody who has given testimony on television and it has been in the newspapers. He used to take them out for a drive in what we now know he used to own, a Rolls Royce, etc., and regularly attack them in the back of cars, in the back of caravans. There is one woman who claims to have been attacked inside a caravan outside Television Centre. There are people that claim that he attacked them in his changing rooms in the

Television Centre, and there is even video footage of him attacking a girl on television, on Top of the Pops live on television. If he is prepared to actually assault somebody live on television, on Top of the Pops, and I have seen the footage and it is definitely what is happening. then attacking me and a girl or having some sexual conduct with me and a girl, because I was a willing participant and as far as I was aware she was as well, in the back of

his car in a public place is not that unlikely, in the circumstances.

Q. Are any of your accounts informed by what you have read in the media?

A. They were, because I saw the documentary on lTV where some women came forward and said that Savile had sexually assaulted them. Like I said, there is barely a day goes past that I don't reflect upon how different my life might have been had it not been for my encounter with Savile and all the things that have occurred, which have been knock‐on effects as a result of that.

Within days of that broadcast there were Savile's funeral arrangements being shown, the headstones had gone up with the words "It was good while it lasted". That was the tipping point. I decided there and then I was going to go and speak to the police about my experience. and with the exception of having mentioned to my co‐directors about the situation with my mother writing to the school, that led to them taking over the company and effectively ejecting me from the company, that was the first time I had ever talked to anybody about what I had witnessed and what I had been involved with, with Savile. Q. Okay.

A. Those incidents were formative in my life. They have had an effect on my life almost continuously throughout the whole of my life. They have had some ∙ quite considerable consequences, so although I was only 12 at the time I don't recall it in absolutely graphic detail, the bits that I recall are graphic enough, and the incidents with the girl in the back of the car, the meeting with Savile in the first place in the hospital at my sister's bedside, and the incident with the trolley in the lift, are memories that I would rather not have had to be fair.

Q. Okay. Could I ask you to summarise in a few words your feelings towards Jimmy Savile?

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A. Initially I was a willing participant because he was delivering a new experience to me, which was a sexual awakening, and that was pleasurable, it was something that I wanted to happen again, and I sought a second meeting with him to try and recapture that. I was successful in my attempts to seek a second meeting with him.

The final meeting was different altogether. In those circumstances following the physical assault, my feelings towards him changed dramatically. It is only some I believe years later as I am getting to about 17 and I finally get a television set that I sat there and realised who this gentleman was, and how much of a celebrity he was.

It really quite rankled throughout my adult life that I had had that final encounter with him in particular, with the injuries caused and witnessing essentially the corpse being abused. It was very unpleasant.

The final tipping point was, as I said previously, the words on the grave stone. I think you can probably appreciate how much that rankled as the final chapter, and it was either the same day or the next day after that when the grave stone had gone up that I went to the police and gave my story. Like I say, in the initial story released to the police I didn't cover the incident with the body in the lift. I transposed the injury to after the second incident, so I told the police about him attacking me and nipping my testicle but I was too frightened to tell the police at that initial stage in that initial meeting about the situation with the corpse. I don't know why but that stood out as being too great a thing to say.

I was also quite concerned that when I was telling the police my story, I may be arrested for my behaviour towards my sister REDACTED when I was 12, and I didn't want to add anything else into the mix like the corpse incident at that moment in time, because I didn't know what was going to happen for the first three‐quarters of the story, if that makes sense.

The police have been listening to me speak for a couple of hours and making some scribbled notes, left me for about 45 minutes in the interview room by myself, went away and made phone calls or whatever, and then came back.

Two of them came back in. The police officer that actually interviewed me and the same police officer that came back later was wearing full stab vest and baton and mace, and was a big frightening individual, you wouldn't want to argue with him. After he had listened to me speak for two hours and made notes, he looked me straight in the face and said 'Have you anything more that you want to add to this statement, because if there are things you wish to say you need to get it all out on the table now'.

Those words really held my hand on going ahead with it, and I am now starting to think that I am likely to be arrested for the way I behaved with my sister, and it stayed my hand and I didn't say anything about the corpse incident at that time. He came back about 45 minutes later with another officer. They advised me that the statement and the testimony that I had given would be passed on to the Metropolitan Police who were investigating the whole thing, that the situation was rapidly getting out of hand, that there were more and more and more people coming forward.

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He sat down and explained to me that because I was a child at the time I hadn't actually done anything wrong, that although I had effectively committed offences because I had done them as a child they were not going to bring charges or prosecute me for those offences, and essentially spent about 10 minutes allaying my fears about what might happen next after going and telling the police the full story as such.

We had had a situation where I didn't know whether I would be in trouble for what happened with the girl in the back of Savile's car, I didn't know whether I would be in trouble for the way I behaved with REDACTED, and I didn't want to add the third one into the mix at that moment in time until I knew what was going to happen about that. It had taken me

40‐odd years to come forward with that.

Q. Okay, thank you for that. Claire?

Ms Jones: No, I have no more questions, thank you.

Mr Galloway: Right Mr REDACTED, thank you very much. I know it has been a difficult situation and experience for you, but we are grateful for you sharing that with us. The interview is concluded.

[Interview concluded at 1.07pm]

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